Lectures Transcribed

Churning of the Milk Ocean

24-12-2012 SB 8.6.21-28, Churning the Milk Ocean, Cape Town, South Africa

om namo bhagavate vasudevaya!
om namo bhagavate vasudevaya!
om namo bhagavate vasudevaya!

Reading from Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 8, Chapter 6, “The Demigods and Demons declare a Truce”, text… it says 20 here; I was told it was 21. Is this correct? Or is
Devotee: Ahh… I think its 21 because we did 20 yesterday…

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Oh okay, so you already did this.

Devotee: Ya.

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Ah ha… Ah ha…

Devotee: So it’s fine you can speak on 21…

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Okay… okay… Did someone just write this up this morning? Or is this… Oh, was it an error. (laughter) Anyway in Krishna’s service nothing is wasted (laughter) even if you write the same verse up again. It’s all transcendental. So it’s okay then to do 21? Is it?
Devotees: Yes

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Okay, okay so 21 and actually we’ll read a couple more verses ah… because there’s no substantial purport for a little while, ya till 28 actually.

amatotpadane yatnau
kriyatam avilambitam
yasya petasya vai jantur
matyu-grasto ‘maro bhavet

“Immediately endeavor to produce nectar, which a person who is about to die may drink to become immortal.” (SB. 8.6.21 Translation)

kniptva knerodadhau sarva
manthanaa mandaraa katva
netraa katva tu vasukim

sahayena maya deva
nirmanthadhvam atandritau
klesa-bhajo bhavinyanti
daitya yuyaa phala-grahau

“Translation: O demigods, cast into the ocean of milk all kinds of vegetables, grass, creepers and drugs. Then, with My help, making Mandara Mountain the churning rod and Väsuki the rope for churning, churn the ocean of milk with undiverted attention. Thus the demons will be engaged in labor, but you, the demigods, will gain the actual result, the nectar produced from the ocean. (SB. 8.6.22-23 Translation)

Purport: It appears that when different kinds of drugs, creepers, grass and vegetables are put into this milk and the milk is churned, as milk is churned for butter, the active principles of the vegetables and drugs mix with the milk, and the result is nectar.” (SB. 8.6.22-23)

I’m going to carry on if you don’t mind really.

yuyaa tad anumodadhvaa
yad icchanty asurau surau
na saarambheea sidhyanti
sarvarthau santvaya yatha

“My dear demigods, with patience and peace everything can be done, but if one is agitated by anger, the goal is not achieved. Therefore, whatever the demons ask, agree to their proposal.” (SB. 8.6.24 Translation)

na bhetavyaa kalakuoad
vinaj jaladhi-sambhavat
lobhau karyo na vo jatu
ronau kamas tu vastunu

“A poison known as kälaküöa will be generated from the ocean of milk, but you should not fear it. And when various products are churned from the ocean, you should not be greedy for them or anxious to obtain them, nor should you be angry.” (SB. 8.6.25 Translation)
“Purport: It appears that by the churning process many things would be generated from the ocean of milk, including poison, valuable gems, nectar and many beautiful women. The demigods were advised, however, not to be greedy for the gems or beautiful women, but to wait patiently for the nectar. The real purpose was to get the nectar.” (SB. 8.6.25 Purport)

sri-suka uvaca
iti devan samadicya
bhagavan purusottamau
tenam antardadhe rajan
svacchanda-gatir ecvarau

“Sukadeva Gosvami continued: O King Parékñit, after advising the demigods in this way, the independent Supreme Personality of Godhead, the best of all living entities, disappeared from their presence.” (SB. 8.6.26 Translation)

atha tasmai bhagavate
namaskatya pitamahau
bhavac ca jagmatuu svaa svaa
dhamopeyur balia surau

“Then Lord Brahmä and Lord Çiva, after offering their respectful obeisances to the Lord, returned to their abodes. All the demigods then approached Maharaja Bali.” (SB. 8.6.27 Translation)

danovaren apy asaayattai
jata-knobhan sva-nayakan
nyanedhad daitya-rao slokyau

“Maharaja Bali, a most celebrated king of the demons, knew very well when to make peace and when to fight. Thus although his commanders and captains were agitated and were about to kill the demigods, Maharaja Bali, seeing that the demigods were coming to him without a militant attitude, forbade his commanders to kill them.” (SB.8.6.28 Translation)
Purport: “Vedic etiquette enjoins: gahe catrum api praptaa vicvastam akutobhayam. When enemies come to their opponent’s place, they should be received in such a way that they will forget that there is animosity between the two parties. Bali Maharaja was well conversant with the arts of peacemaking and fighting. Thus he received the demigods very well, although his commanders and captains were agitated. This kind of treatment was prevalent even during the fight between the Päëòavas and the Kurus. During the day, the Päëòavas and Kurus would fight with the utmost strength, and when the day was over they would go to each other’s camps as friends and be received as such. During such friendly meetings, one enemy would offer anything the other enemy wanted. That was the system.”

danovären apy asaayattai
jata-knobhan sva-nayakan
nyanedhad daitya-rao slokyau

“Maharaja Bali, a most celebrated king of the demons, knew very well when to make peace and when to fight. Thus although his commanders and captains were agitated and were about to kill the demigods, Maharaja Bali, seeing that the demigods were coming to him without a militant attitude, forbade his commanders to kill them.” (SB.8.6.28)

nama om vishnu-padaya krishna-preshthaya bhu-tale
srimate bhaktivedanta swamin iti namine

namaste saraswati deve gaura-vani-pracharine
nirvishesha-shunyavadi pashchatya-desha-tarine

sri-krishna-chaitanya prabhu nityananda
sri-adwaita gadadhara shrivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrinda

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

So yesterday, I take it that you read verse 20 and there ah… the Supreme Personality of Godhead was advising the demigods to act in a certain way which might appear to be at least something extraordinary even maybe slightly dishonest or something like that, “that you should act according to the logic of the snake and the mouse. We were all here for the class yesterday, yes?

Devotee: Saturday the class was?

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: oh okay, Saturday! Oh okay, okay, you were all here on Saturday then? Okay…

Devotees: (cannot hear audio properly)

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Hmmm… okay…So the logic of the snake and the mouse. It’s a very crafty and sneaky logic ahh… and actually Srila Prabhupada explains the whole thing in the purport and actually the whole purport is the story of the snake and the mouse. Somehow we don’t know how… but somehow there is a snake and a mouse and they are caught in a basket, like completely enclosed and how are we going to get out? So for a snake, a mouse is something like the natural foodstuff, ya. Snakes among other things are fond of eating mice apparently so, so this was in one sense, Prabhupada explains this was just an ideal situation for the snake because he has this mouse and there is nothing that the mouse can do let alone escape and so without any effort, he can just grab the mouse and eat the mouse and achieve his goal of… of eating and becoming happy in that way. But, the thing is somehow, there are both there in the basket and it is completely enclosed so whether the snake eats the mouse or does not eat the mouse, the snake is not going to get out. The snake is completely captive and that is it for the snake. So the logic of the snake and the mouse is the snake even though normally, he would immediately without a thought attack the mouse and enjoy eating the mouse, ah…But no under these circumstances he doesn’t do that cause the mouse can eat his way through the basket in that way they can both escape and the logic… and the logic of the snake and the mouse Prabhupada explains is the mouse eats a hole through the basket and just when he has finished and you know they can now both escape then the snake eats the mouse, (laughter) and then he escapes and that’s the logic of the snake and the mouse.

So here the chapter is called, “The Demigods and Demons declare a Truce” and we read on some verses and we saw the idea you know that it is not they are in a basket but they are in a situation. They are in a situation, they all, and particularly the demigods here they are the sort of main characters…ahh they all in particular the demigods want to churn the ocean of milk and get the nectar but then here are the demons. They would also like to do that and get the nectar. So the proposition of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Khirodashayee Vishnu, is speaking… Khirodashayee Vishnu who is the form of the Lord who lies on the Swetadwipa island which happens to be in the middle of the ocean of milk. Yes. So the logic under these circumstances, the application of the logic is that you know churning an ocean of milk, that’s a big job. That’s… that’s hard work so you got all these big strong demons here, get them help, by their mercy or at least with their assistance using the celestestial servant, Vasukhi as a rope and Mandira mountain as a churning rod in the ocean of milk which will then by pulling on the rope, the mountain will turn like this (demonstrates) and the ocean of milk will get churned and different things will come out. Ultimately the nectar of… not exactly immortality really as such, but the nectar which gives long, long material life will come out and then the demigods will grab it and drink it and then, empowered by the nectar, they will smash the demigods. Thanks for helping us churn the ocean of milk. “Wack! (laughter) Off with your head.” This is the application of the logic of the snake and the mouse in this specific situation.

So normally of course the demigods, if they were up to it when they see here’s the celestial demons in front of us, the demigods would just grab their weapons and just start fighting and kill them because normally, well this is the normal exchange between the demigods and the demons. You fight each other and try and kill each other. You know some people smile and shake hands, some others look to see how can I enjoy you, others just fight when they meet. The demigods and demons, they just fight, that’s just the way they are. So in all the demigods where up to it and when they would just see the demons and grab their weapons and start fighting and try to kill them and vice versa. But now the demigods are in a severely compromised condition. Yes, they had become severely weakened and even if, even if they were not being given this very astute advice by Khirodashayee Vishnu ahh… even if they were not being sort of induced to the tricky and diplomatic, they are still not in any position to fight with the demons because they lost their power, they lost their shakti, that was explained I think in the beginning of the chapter, or a little before. Ahh… Lord Indra offended Dhruvasa Muni and Dhruvasa Muni is not a person you want to offend because you don’t want to offend anyone actually but you particularly don’t want to offend Dhruvasa Muni because even if you do, some minor offence, it’s not really an offence but it will just be a little social error. It may not even be that, it may be just something totally unobtrusive and you know just nothing. But Dhruvasa Muni, his thing is you know demigods and demons, they fight. Men and women they meet and a lot of the times they think… ah ha… (laughter) how can we enjoy (laughter).
Dhruvasa Muni, you meet him, you watch out because he takes offence, he sees offence even when there is none or very little. Ja, he is amazing, even you know a situation like this sitting here and you why are you not sitting properly (laughter) and you do and you think, why are you (laughter) leaning against the door try and hold it up (laughter) and… and… and you, what happened to your tilak? And you, why don’t you have a shika and you why have you got a long shika. So you see Dhruvasa Muni, whatever you do it’s wrong. Why are you sitting properly? You trying to show off? (laughter) This is Dhruvasa Muni even when you do the right thing, it’s the wrong thing.

So now Indra, He actually did something offensive, it was really something he shouldn’t have done to anybody and particularly Dhruvasa Muni. Dhruvasa Muni was there in the assembly of demigods which Indra is the chief of and as a gesture of magnanimity and kindness and you know ahh… and know from a senior to a junior he offered… Dhruvasa Muni offered Indra ahh… his garland. He had been wearing a garland and as a gesture of kindness, whatever like that, he says to Indra, “Here take my garland”. But Indra being in a somewhat proud mood, puffed up mood he got this garland and I don’t know why, maybe he just didn’t like the colour but He decided he didn’t want to wear it, he hung it on the trunk of his elephant and the elephant being an animal just you know, what’s this thing just threw if off and just trotted on it and Dhruvasa Muni… right in front of Dhruvasa Muni ohhh… (laughter) and so Indra lost all his power and not only Indra, all the demigods because… because their leader who they were all attached to and strongly connected with and dependent upon, you know it’s like a network because their leader committed an offence because of the network of connection they also became affected. That’s an interesting point in itself that ahh… also, also when Srngi at the beginning of Srimad Bhagavatam, when Srngi the young brahmana boy, unqualified, not properly educated and not… not well cultured, when he cursed Maharaja Parikshit which of course is the event which is like the basis for the speaking of the entire Srimad Bhagavatam. When Srngi cursed Maharaja Parikshit unjustly, he should not have done that ahh… then, he was a brahmana and the brahmana society is also like that, like all networked together. Everyone is connected to everyone else. The whole brahmana community became deteriorated and started falling down.

Ya and now we see today at least in India, the whole brahmana community at least 99% of it is severely, severely, extremely deteriorated. It’s just disastrously deteriorated. It all comes from that, from that one boy. There’s in other words a community… ahh all members of the community are responsible for the other members. You cannot just say that well you know that’s his problem, members of community are connected, particularly the leadership of a community has an extremely, extremely responsible role and there will be great implications. There will be great positive implications if the leader of the community does very well as the leader. There will be great negative implications if the leader falls down and gets into some really bad situation, the whole community will be affected.

So that’s what happened, because of Indra’s offence, all the demigods lost their power and the situation here we see generally when the demigods and demons meet, they don’t really even say “Hello”, they just start fighting. Ya that’s all. It’s just the way they are oriented. But now the demigods being severely ahh… compromised in strength, if they try to attack the demons, they are going to get slaughtered completely, perhaps wiped out, annilated and ahh… Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva of course they are also demigods but their position is much higher than Indra and the regular demigods, the vast majority of demigods are under the authority of Indra. He is the king of the demigods. But Brahma and Shiva, even though they are demigods they are above him. So by the arrangement of Lord Brahma, they got to meet Khirodashayee Vishnu, the demigods, and the demigods are now being instructed by Khirodashayee Vishnu in this very diplomatic way that ahh… hmm… that “don’t try to fight them, get the nectar, the thing is the nectar. You get the nectar, then you can fight with them. Until you get the nectar, just… you just be completely cool, totally cool,” and even to the point, the Lord tells the demigods here, “you know you get them to help with this churning so the nectar comes out. When they ask for whatever they say, you just agree.” Oh yes normally, just on principle they would disagree (laughter). You know even if they just asked for something just say yeah sure because you want to get the nectar which is coming but you got tolerate. You got to be very patient for the time being and well… ahh… we’ll read it as the story develops, as it goes on. Ahh…

“The demons agree” we will read all about it. The demons agree and the demons take one end of ahh… of Vasukhi ahh… the demigods take the other end and the demons end up with if I remember correctly, the tail end, the demigods have got the head end and the demigods, you know they are about to start pulling suddenly, the demons say “hey wait a minute, we got the tail, that is inauspicious, we want the head end” and the demigods on the basis of all of this they were made to say, “sure, (laughter) you can have whatever end you like (laughter) just tell us” and so they swap ends. So, so the Lord is advising the demigods under the circumstances in very clever ways, very clever ways that you know, that when you start churning the ocean of milk, it is not that the nectar that is just going to come out like that but rather many things are going to come out, some horrible things are going to come out, the kalakuta poison. That’s going to come out and… and some nice things are going to come out, gems and beautiful women so these different things, nice things, bad things…

Sri Sri Nitai Mayapur Chandra Ki Jai!

“All these different things are going to come out but… but when you see them, particularly the nice things, don’t become attracted just tolerate and you know just don’t… try not to ahh… notice these things too much, wait for the nectar. Just wait for the nectar then when the nectar comes, just get it!” That’s the point, so this is the Supreme Personality of Godhead speaking, ahh…very interesting and then in the last verse we read which was 28. Then… well the Lord has finished his instructions and… and disappeared. Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva because they are not really part of the situation exactly, they are on a higher level, they have also gone to their abodes and now it’s the demigods and the demons confronting each other. So, the demigods then approached the demons without weapons and you know obviously not in a militant mood, just like in a social type of mood and Bali Maharaja, who was the king of the demons and who himself is a highly qualified person in many ways actually, much more qualified than the other demons. Here it is described, the other demons, his commanders and captains, the other leaders of the demons under Bali Maharaja, they just wanted to kill the demigods but Bali Maharaja could see, “No! They don’t want to fight, something is going on here, let’s us find out what is going on” and Srila Prabhupada devotes the purport to discussing it is an interesting aspect of Vedic culture, interesting aspect that if they are two sides and somehow there are some major dispute and it comes to the point of war between the two sides so they would fight face to face during the day and at the moment the sun set they’ll stop. They wouldn’t think if they are just about to cut off someone’s head and the sun sets, they wouldn’t think oh, it’s okay to cut off his head. No, they would say, oh okay, that’s it, stop, end! Literally until the time the sun rose again in the morning, as soon as that happened, they were back into it. But from the time that the sunset, till sunrise, they were friends and they would visit each others’ camps and sit down and have dinner together and chat and just a
few hours before they were trying to kill each other very savagely. It’s amazing! This is part of Vedic culture, it’s very interesting.

Vedic culture, Krishna Conscious culture is a very non-envious culture… ya… and even… even in different parts of the world maybe not exactly to this degree but up until recently, the idea of warriors being noble and you know don’t shoot someone in the back. That sort of idea and… and don’t attack the women and children, just fight the other soldiers and if someone is down, you know, don’t… don’t kick a person when they are down. Let them get up again. This sort of vestiges of noble, upstanding character they were still there. They were still there even on Christmas day 1914. The first Christmas during the First Word War, the British… in some places, the British and German soldiers played soccer together. (laughter) Ya. Just on the first Christmas day they did that in some places, it’s well known historical event but then the next day, they were at it again and…
There’s a famous character in like somewhat recent Indian Military history, some of you may have heard of, Shivaji, Shivaji, he was a king of some area in India ahh… you know maybe like I don’t know four, five hundred years ago or something like that and he was a kñatriyas and he really held these ksatriya principles. So he was fighting against the Muslims, the Muslims were invading and there was one particular Muslim leader, I don’t know his name who he fought against and defeated and captured and when they captured the Muslim leader they let him go. Then they fought again a little later and captured him again and let him go again and this happened several times. They let him go. One time the Muslims defeated them and captured Shivaji, and killed him. (laughter) He is a famous personality in Indian military history but… but here ahh… Bali Maharaja he is a ksatriya and ahh… the term is dharmatma, dharmatma even the term is used nowadays sometimes in India, a religious person. Dharmatma, he was… you know he’s a demon. He’s not exactly a demon but he’s a member of the community of demons but still his character was extremely noble and upright and very righteous and for example he respected the brahmanas, he would do anything and give anything to a brahmana which he eventually did with Lord Vamana but… but these were his principles. So the other demons didn’t have such high principles but he was like you could say a dharmatma, ahh… a very pious and religiously minded person so he saw, here come the demigods and obviously they don’t want to fight they don’t have their weapons. So they must have something they want to discuss, let’s discuss with them ahh… and so in this way, anyway we will read how they actually make a truce and then they cooperate in the churning of the ocean of milk but Vedic culture… Vedic culture is like that. Krishna Conscious culture is like that.

Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati would say that, “you can recognise a Vaisnava because he is a perfect gentleman, just by being a Vaisnava a person becomes a perfect gentlemen” or gentle lady, of high character, just most wonderful type of person without the lower tendencies like in the greed, pride, arrogance, cheating tendency ahh… these are… they are just those types of characteristics that are not just there in the character of at least a pure devotee, a first class Vaisnava. They are completely beyond these things and… and as a result even in regard to their enemies as discussed here, they are actually sincere well-wishers of their enemies.

Maharaja Yudhisthira, he was very much such a person, he is known as ajata-satru. His enemy is… his satru ,enemy is…satru basically means someone who wants to hurt you literally. His enemy was ajata, of course we know that Maharaja Yudhisthira had many enemies and they assembled a huge army against them… huge army but still Maharaja Yudhisthira is … it’s one of his names is ajata-satru, he whose enemy was never born, but he had many enemies who wanted to and tried to kill him at different times but as far as he was concerned none of them were his enemies. He did not feel these are my enemies, he felt no animosity towards them whatsoever but rather he felt he had benevolent feelings.

In Mahabharata there is the description of the Pandavas in exile and Duryodhana the chief of the opposing side, Duryodhana from time to time, he would do something to make life more difficult for the Pandavas. They are already in the forest just living under trees, it’s already more than difficult enough really but he would from time to time make arrangements to make things more difficult. You know he sent Dhruvasa Muni and his 60,000 disciples. “You want lunch? Go and ask the Pandavas” cause he was hoping that the Pandavas would not be able to provide lunch. Dhruvasa Muni as we mentioned being hyper-sensitive, would become offended and curse them. They are already living under the trees in the forest but he wanted to make it worse. So one day Duryodhana came and his idea was in one way or another, he wanted to just come and have a look at the Pandavas and have a good laugh at them. “Ha, look at you, living under the trees.” “You don’t even have a supermarket to go to; you just have to pick stuff from the trees.” (laughter) He wanted to get a laugh. Look at them, “these fools” so he was coming and on the way he met a gandharva a powerful, not like our Gandharva (laughter) but a male gandharva, warrior and gandharvas are demigods like minor demigods but they are still demigods. They are much more powerful than human beings. So somehow a fight developed between Duryodhana and the gandharva and the gandharva was more powerful. He was just about to kill Duryodhana when the word reached the Pandavas in the forest there and Yudhisthira, when he heard this he immediately said, “Let’s go! Take our weapons and help Duryodhana. He’s our cousin. Let’s save him”. Bhima, he was not so enthusiastic (laughter) he was just… Bhima thought,
“Ahh… he deserves it.” But Yudhisthira went and fought the gandharva and defeated him and saved the life of Duryodhana.

You know we may not be ksatriya material ourselves so much, but we can appreciate the mood, the spirit, the non-envious spirit of the pure hearted personality. Ya. So even if someone feels that a devotee is his or her enemy, the devotee will not feel that this is my enemy, rather the devotee will have benevolent kind feelings towards that person unless of course that person offends another devotee or Krsna, then the devotee will take exception and act very strongly. But on their own account, if the devotee sees that someone is abusing me, someone is aggressive towards me, nasty towards me. A devotee at least… a very advanced devotee does not get all upset and fight back and say, “Why me? I don’t deserve it, they’re nasty…” The devotee says… Ahh, just see… I am getting reactions from my previous bad activities. I deserve it!” Ya. They just take shelter of the Lord.
We will see that in a little… in a while when you reach the 9th Canto and Maharaja Ambarish is offended by Durvasa Muni… the same Durvasa Muni, again for nothing. (laughter) literally for nothing actually, it was his miscalculation that he had been offended. So then Durväsä Muni creates some mystical demon to attack Maharaja Ambarish and of course Maharaja Ambarish he is a very powerful kshatriya. He could have fought, different things he could have tried to do. He didn’t. He just stood there, folded his hands and prayed to the Lord and he became so absorbed in remembering the Lord, tears came from his eyes. He didn’t become belligerent, he didn’t panic, he didn’t accuse Durväsä Muni of being unfair. He just took shelter of the Lord. So he is very advanced, devotees and ourselves of course we are not on the same level as Maharaja Ambarish or Maharaja Yudhisthira ahh… but we should try and appreciate their examples and if, or we should really say when we get into challenging situations, because don’t worry, they will come from time to time, no matter how expert you feel you are getting around them or somehow doing something. They’ll come. They’ll come. So when our challenges come then we should try and remember these examples and remember how these devotees dealt with their challenges in pure Krishna Consciousness and do our best at least. To deal with our challenges in really Krishna Conscious ways and not just get emotional about it and or angry or whatever like that.

Hare Krishna!

Any comments or question?

Yes, Mataji?

Mataji: “Maharaja you were talking about the Brahmins, Srngi for example, he did something wrong and how it affected everybody. Maybe you want to comment something about as devotees what we do positive and negative how it affects society? ”

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Well yes, a very simple example, if it’s still book distribution marathon, if you’re out there somewhere and you are just trying to distribute more books and just get everyone to take a book whether they like it or not or want it or not and if you just force someone to take a book and just you know overdo it and they walk away thinking “wow these Hare Krishnas they are too much”. And the next time they see another Hare Krishna. First of all they’re going to tell their friends, why you wouldn’t believe I met this Hare Krishna and that was terrible and the next time they see some other Hare Krishna then they think, oh it’s one of them and this is actually how in America in the 70’s really, our movement got a very bad name with the public because in the name of distributing lots of Srila Prabhupada’s books which is one wonderful but some of the devotees just got carried away and offended a lot of people by using cheating techniques and things like that and it… it had implications for the whole organization. So you know that’s a simple example but in more subtle sense, in a more subtle sense, you know if anybody but particularly the seniors anyone or some of the seniors start to ahh… lower their standards in Krishna Consciousness and you know like for example, start watching television regularly, as an example, and the other younger devotees they become aware, and then they start thinking, “oh must be okay.” So like this… there are implications. Ya… or eating certain foodstuffs, you know from the shop which may be you know borderline or who knows really where they are maybe. Ya. Ahh like this trends develop and it can start even with the younger devotee also but it’s much more likely to really take hold, kind of infiltrate the community if it starts with the senior devotees.

Ya. So… and then even in a really subtle way, like for example, if the senior devotees attend the morning program, it’s very good. It’s certainly very good for them because no one is really so advanced that it’s not good for them to attend the morning program but it sets a very good example. Other devotees can understand it must be good thing because the seniors are doing it ah but you there is also just you know just like a subtle connection in the sense that in particularly, leaders or seniors, if their standards go down there’s going to be subtle influence amongst the other members of the community like maybe you might not be able to see it or.. but you know it’s there.

Yes, so even like here in our temple, the temple as such… and the extended community of devotees’ ahh… it makes a difference what, particularly what standards the seniors maintain. Ya it makes a difference… even… even just in truly subtle ways which you may not really be able to put your finger on. So you know we are all members of the community even whoever is the most junior, spiritually junior devotee sitting here right now. There must be someone who is actually spiritually, the most junior here right now. Whoever that person is…ahh… even what they do, it matters. If they become serious and really get into everything in the right ways ahh… there will be a type… there will be ripple effects throughout the other members in different ways. Ya… so… Hare Krishna.

Hare Krishna!

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Yes

Mataji: In regard to the class, basically the umm… churning of the milk ocean, where Ksirodaksayi Vishnu told the demigods not to get attached to all these beautiful things that are coming out…

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Right…

Mataji: and eventually be disturbed by the bad things and that they should wait for the nectar. Can we kind of draw a line like through our personal practice and in devotional practice that you know we shouldn’t be so disturbed by all the bad things and just keep on like achieving prema is like the nectar?

Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Well… yes… you could say that…you could say that… ahh… certainly we should try not to become like depressed or lose our enthusiasm if there are difficulties or when they are difficulties. When there are materially good things, we should not become carried away ahh… and yes we should keep our eyes on the ultimate goal of… of… really coming to the level of pure devotional service. But if there are spiritually good things that happen, we should celebrate those like someone goes out and distributes a lot of books. Gaurasundara Prabhu goes out and does 1000 books in a day! (Haribol!) We should celebrate. We should not just think, “ohh, okay. It was Krishna acting through me (laughter) you know it’s okay. No! We should celebrate, not in the mood of enjoyment like independent enjoyment. Ya… and he of course should not think “wow; I am a big book distributor, look at me, everyone should appreciate me” but spiritually we should appreciate, celebrate ahh… nice things that happen in Krishna consciousness and ahh… if there are spiritual challenges, then you know like in some places sometimes the government tries to either slow down or sometimes even stop the movement so we shouldn’t just think, “oh… it’s okay!” no, we should become concerned and really work to… to correct things but certainly in personal terms ahh… you know if we like … get sick then one should try just take it as the Lord’s mercy and say okay, now I am sick and I should get better as quickly as possible but in the meantime let me just do some Krishna Conscious things that I can do while I am sick. But of course we should keep our eyes on the goal to become pure devotees ahh… but we should also have more immediate goals too, like krsna prema, you know that’s quite a goal. How about chanting 16 rounds…? How about chanting one round attentively? How about that for starters? That’s a good goal! (laughter) Ja and that’s something which is extremely relevant today, right now. I must chant 16 rounds. Okay that’s fine! But at least 1 of them should be a really attentive round and then from that others may also develop other rounds. Ya, so we are goal orientated, we are not just sort of you know, “let is all just happen.” “Whatever Krsna desires!” There is a place for whatever Krsna desires, consciousness but we should also have mini goals well like talking about the book distribution ahh… if the most of you have done in a day before perhaps is 50, then in order to please Krsna, please Lord Caitanya, please Prabhupada and help the conditioned souls and like that, then you should think “right, I did 50, I want to do 100. I want to do a 100”, like this, it’s a goal but it’s you know a very… it’s a very relevant goal in very practical terms today. You know developing krsna prema obviously is relevant but you know in our experience ahh… we feel that it is quite rare that someone goes from this sort of condition we are in to krsna prema on the same day. (laughter) so you know it may really come on the down to earth terms like what am I doing right now and trying to do today. It may not be… it may be in a certain sense idealistic and naive even ahh… but we… but we should definitely have goals for improving our Krishna Consciousness. Chant better. Distribute more. Get up every time for the morning program. You know. Read more and better. These are things we may not be doing but we need to do and if we don’t do those things then the krsna prema goal is never going to come. We will never get there.

Anyway, good point. Thank you.

Srila Prabhupada ki Jai!

His Holiness Bhakti Caitanya Maharaja ki Jai!


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