Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila Chapter 8
Durban, South Africa, April 15, 2012
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Jaya jaya sri-caitanya jaya nityananda
Devotees: Jaya jaya sri-caitanya jaya nityananda
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Jayadvaita-candra jaya gaura-bhakta-vrnda
Devotees: Jayadvaita-candra jaya gaura-bhakta-vrnda
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Today we are continuing with the kirtan festival, chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Sri Hare Krsna maha-mantra ki –
Devotees: Jaya!
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So we were asked this morning to read something and say something about the subject of the chanting of the holy names. So what we will do, we will read from Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila Chapter 8 – The Author Receives the Orders of Krsna and Guru – and we will read a number of verses. We will read through a lot of the chapter actually because the chapter in many ways is dealing with the subject of chanting the holy names. So let us do like that.
[Cc. Adi 8.1]
“I offer my respects to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, by whose desire I have become like a dancing dog and suddenly taken to the writing of Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, although I am a fool.”
jaya jaya sri–krsna–caitanya gauracandra
jaya jaya paramananda jaya nityananda
[Cc. Adi 8.2]
“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is known as Gaurasundara. I also offer my respectful obeisances unto Nityananda Prabhu, who is always very joyful.”
jaya jayadvaita acarya kṛpamaya
jaya jaya gadadhara pandita mahasaya
[Cc. Adi 8.3]
“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto Advaita Acarya, who is very merciful, and also to that great personality Gadadhara Pandita, the learned scholar.”
jaya jaya srivasadi yata bhakta–gana
pranata ha–iya vandon sabara carana
[Cc. Adi 8.4]
“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto Srivasa Thakura and all the other devotees of the Lord. I fall down to offer them respect. I worship their lotus feet.”
muka kavitva kare yan-sabara smarane
pangu giri langhe, andha dekhe tara-gane
[Cc. Adi 8.5]
“By remembering the lotus feet of the Panca–tattva, a dumb man can become a poet, a lame man can cross mountains, and a blind man can see the stars in the sky.”
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Now there’s a series of verses, very strong verses, describing the faulty positions of people who do not accept Lord Caitanya and the Panca-tattva.
e–saba na mane yei pandita sakala
ta-sabara vidya-paṭha bheka–kolahala
[Cc. Adi 8.6]
“The education cultivated by so-called learned scholars who do not believe these statements of Sri Caitanya Caritamrta is like the tumultuous croaking of frogs.”
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So there you go, all the PhDs, Nobel Peace Prize winners, big authors, intellectuals, etc.etc. out the window, gone. That’s the end of them.
ei saba na mane yeba kare krsna–bhakti
krsna–krpa nahi tare, nahi tara gati
[Cc. Adi 8.7]
“One who does not accept the glories of the Panca–tattva but still makes a show of devotional service to Krsna can never achieve the mercy of Krsna or advance to the ultimate goal.”
purve yaiche jarasandha–adi raja–gana
veda–dharma kari‘ kare visnura pujana
[Cc. Adi 8.8]
“Formerly kings like Jarasandha [the father-in-law of Kamsa] strictly followed the Vedic rituals, thus worshiping Lord Visnu.”
krsna nahi mane, tate daitya kari‘ mani
caitanya na manile taiche daitya tare jani
[Cc. Adi 8.9]
“One who does not accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is certainly a demon. Similarly, anyone who does not accept Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as Krsna, the same Supreme Lord, is also to be considered a demon.”
more na manile saba loka habe nasa
ithi lagi‘ krpardra prabhu karila sannyasa
[Cc. Adi 8.10]
“Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu thought, “Unless people accept Me they will all be destroyed.” Thus the merciful Lord accepted the sannyasa order.”
sannyasi–buddhye more karibe namaskara
tathapi khandibe duhkha, paibe nistara
[Cc. Adi 8.11]
“If a person offers obeisances to Me, even due to accepting Me only as an ordinary sannyasi, his material distresses will diminish, and he will ultimately get liberation.”
hena krpamaya caitanya na bhaje yei jana
sarvottama ha–ileo tare asure ganana
[Cc. Adi 8.12]
“One who does not show respect unto this merciful Lord, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, or does not worship Him should be considered a demon, even if he is very much exalted in human society.”
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So there they go, all the worshippers of this deva and devi, followers of this or that program of religions, spiritualism – whatever, whatever. All of them, along with all the intellectuals and PhDs and so on – they also, they join them – out the window, gone.
ataeva punah kahon urdhva–bahu hana
caitanya–nityananda bhaja kutarka chadiya
[Cc. Adi 8.13]
“Therefore I say again, lifting my arms: O fellow human beings, please worship Sri Caitanya and Nityananda without false arguments!”
yadi va tarkika kahe, — tarka se pramana
tarka-sastre siddha yei, sei sevyamana
[Cc. Adi 8.14]
“Logicians say, “Unless one gains understanding through logic and argument, how can one decide upon a worshipable Deity?””
sri–krsna–caitanya–daya karaha vicara
vicara karite citte pabe camatkara
[Cc. Adi 8.15]
“If you are indeed interested in logic and argument, kindly apply it to the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If you do so, you will find it to be strikingly wonderful.”
bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana
tabu ta‘ na paya krsna–pade prema–dhana
[Cc. Adi 8.16]
“If one is infested with the ten offences in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha–mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.”
krsna yadi chute bhakte bhukti mukti diya
kabhu prema–bhakti na dena rakhena lukaiya
[Cc. Adi 8.18]
“If a devotee wants liberation or material sense gratification from the Lord, Krsna immediately delivers it, but pure devotional service He keeps hidden.”
hena prema sri-caitanya dila yatha tatha
jagai madhai paryanta — anyera ka katha
[Cc. Adi 8.20]
“Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has freely given this love of Krsna everywhere and anywhere, even to the most fallen, such as Jagai and Madhai. What then to speak of those who are already pious and elevated?”
svatantra isvara prema–nigudha–bhandara
bilaila yare tare, na kaila vicara
[Cc. Adi 8.21]
“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, is fully independent. Therefore, although it is the most confidentially stored benediction, He can distribute love of Godhead to anyone and everyone without consideration.”
adyapiha dekha caitanya–nama yei laya
krsna–preme pulakasru-vihvala se haya
[Cc. Adi 8.22]
“Whether he is offensive or inoffensive, anyone who even now chants sri-krsna–caitanya prabhu–nityananda is immediately overwhelmed with ecstasy, and tears fill his eyes.”
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So, please repeat after me. Sri Krsna Caitanya!
Devotees: Sri Krsna Caitanya!
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Prabhu Nityananda!
Devotees: Prabhu Nityananda!
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
‘nityananda‘ balite haya krsna-premodaya
aulaya sakala anga, asru–ganga vaya
[Cc. Adi 8.23]
“Simply by talking of Nityananda Prabhu one awakens his love for Krsna. Thus all his bodily limbs are agitated by ecstasy, and tears flow from his eyes like the waters of the Ganges.”
‘krsna–nama‘ kare aparadhera vicara
krsna balile aparadhira na haya vikara
[Cc. Adi 8.24]
“There are offences to be considered while chanting the Hare Krsna mantra. Therefore simply by chanting Hare Krsna one does not become ecstatic.”
‘eka‘ krsna-name kare sarva–papa nasa
premera karana bhakti karena prakasa
[Cc. Adi 8.26]
“Simply chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra without offences vanquishes all sinful activities. Thus pure devotional service, which is the cause of love of Godhead, becomes manifest.”
premera udaye haya premera vikara
sveda–kampa-pulakadi gadgadasrudhara
[Cc. Adi 8.27]
“When one’s transcendental loving service to the Lord is actually awakened, it generates transformations in the body such as perspiration, trembling, throbbing of the heart, faltering of the voice and tears in the eyes.”
anayase bhava–kṣaya, krsnera sevana
eka krsna–namera phale pai eta dhana
[Cc. Adi 8.28]
“As a result of chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one makes such great advancement in spiritual life that simultaneously his material existence terminates and he receives love of Godhead. The holy name of Krsna is so powerful that by chanting even one name, one very easily achieves these transcendental riches.”
hena krsna–nama yadi laya bahu–bara
tabu yadi prema nahe, nahe asrudhara
tabe jani, aparadha tahate pracura
krsna–nama–bija tahe na kare ankura
[Cc. Adi 8.29-30]
“If one chants the exalted holy name of the Lord again and again and yet his love for the Supreme Lord does not develop and tears do not appear in his eyes, it is evident that because of his offences in chanting, the seed of the holy name of Krsna does not sprout.”
caitanya–nityanande nahi esaba vicara
nama laite prema dena, vahe asrudhara
[Cc. Adi 8.31]
“But if one only chants, with some slight faith, the holy names of Lord Caitanya and Nityananda, very quickly he is cleansed of all offences. Thus as soon as he chants the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, he feels the ecstasy of love for God.”
nama om visnu-padaya krsna-presthaya bhu-tale
srimate bhaktivedanta-svamin iti namine
namas te sarasvate deve gaura-vani-pracarine
nirvisesa-sunyavadi-pascatya-desa-tarine
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: We continue with the kirtan festival today. Please bear these words in mind. The process, the process of Krsna consciousness, the only process of dharma of any sort which will work, which will be effective in this kali-yuga, is – harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha.
This is a very famous verse from Brhan-Naradiya Purana. It appears in Caitanya Caritamrta, in the context of Lord Caitanya accepting initiation from Ishvara Puri. We talked about this in Phoenix, on Friday evening. Lord Caitanya, to set an example for us foolish conditioned souls – then to say we are foolish is almost praising us actually, practically hopeless conditioned souls.
So Lord Caitanya, to set an example for us and acting as if He was one of us, of course He was, He is never one of us – He’s always the Absolute Supreme Personality of Godhead. When He received initiation from Ishvara Puri, then He enquired from His Guru Maharaj, “What should I do now? Now I am initiated – what are My duties?” and He actually suggested, “Perhaps, should I study Vedanta philosophy and, and just absorb my mind in that?” What, is actually extremely dry and almost torturous philosophy. It’s abstruse in the extreme. Just, it’s too much. It’s too much anytime but in kali-yuga it’s much too much but, still it is a practise – even today it’s a practise amongst the impersonalist.
The impersonalist like we read about the materialistic intellectuals; then we read about the foolish people; the materialistic intellectuals are also fools but, then the people who are not intellectual fools, they are just plain fools, sort of common garden variety fools, who do this type of puja and that type of worship and some ritual, or follow some tradition or some other tradition or some popular religion, and think they are just doing fine. So the impersonalists, as Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami condemned, in no uncertain terms, the materialistic intellectuals and these sorts of miscellaneous worshippers of whoever and whatever. There are many different processes these people follow, going under the headings of the popular religions of the day, so they were condemned by Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami as demons, daitya. He used the term daitya twice. Daitya means demon. Daitya specifically refers to a particular type of demon or, or group of demons. They are the children of Diti. There’s Aditi and Diti. They were the wives of Kashyapa and they are described in detailed here in Srimad Bhagavatam. Aditi became the mother of the demigods, particularly Indra, but many, many of the demigods and then Diti –
Sri Sri Radha Radhanatha, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Giri Govardan ki –
Devotees: Jaya!
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Then Diti became the mother of the demons. She is the mother of, amongst numerous other outstanding demons, the most outstanding of all demons – Hiranyakashipu and Hiranyaksha. So they are called, they are the daityas – Hiranyakashipu, Hiranyaksha and then various others also, like the leading demons. So it’s interesting, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami does not just say they are asuras, ungodly people – which is more commonly used for staunchly materialistic people who are anti-God and so on like that; opposed to God and particularly opposed to Krsna. So he didn’t say “asura”. He said that, “they are daityas, these people are daityas”– it’s like it’s referring ultimately to that very sort of foundational group, the forefathers’ original demons. So it’s heavy language.
So the impersonalists are also included in that and Lord Caitanya, when He received initiation, acting as an ordinary person, He enquired from Isvara Puri, “Should I do this, speculate on Vedanta philosophy and, and get together with other people and discuss, or, my ideas and their ideas, what we all think it all means?” Because as we said, it’s so abstruse – that’s very difficult to understand what it means and it can be construed in many ways and someone who’s clever in argument can establish many different understandings – so-called understandings of even one verse in Vedanta.
So Lord Caitanya enquired like that and Isvara Puri said, “No, don’t you do that. Don’t you waste your time.” And he then quoted this verse; we just quoted a few minutes ago, “harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha.” One must chant the holy names, chant the holy names, chant the holy names, in this age of kali there’s no other way, no other way, no other way – gatir, gatir anyatha – to achieve the goal in this age of kali.
There is another verse, related verse, which actually appears. It’s a verse from Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, “ei kali-kale ara nahi kona dharma vaisnava, vaisnava-sastra, ei kahe marma.”
In this age of kali there is no dharma, there is no religion. There’s simply the vaisnavas and the vaisnava-sastras and that is the sum and substance of everything.
So, such strong language. So anyway, Isvara Puri told Lord Caitanya just chant, just chant, just chant. He spoke that verse which emphasizes it – just really completely emphasizes it. So this is the process in kali-yuga, this is the process – to chant the holy names and therefore in Krsna Consciousness. Srila Prabhupada, he gave us this, the whole process of Krsna Consciousness which, of course, is multi-facetted. There are so many different activities we do and, and so many aspects to Krsna Consciousness but Srila Prabhupada, following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya perfectly. Srila Prabhupada, he emphasized the chanting of the holy names, for example, the other day we had an initiation ceremony and, as in any initiation ceremony, the initiates take vows. One positive vow and four negative vows: Chant sixteen rounds a day, “Hare Krsna maha-mantra” everyday – one positive vow; and no meat eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex, like no gambling – four negative vows.
So some people may say, and some people do say that, “Oh, you are negative.” This is negative. It is more focusing on the negative and not on the positive. But actually that is inaccurate – it’s not, not correct. Actually, that one positive outweighs is so much more important than the four negatives that even a person who is not maintaining the four negatives, but somehow is maintaining the one positive, are really regularly chanting and trying to chant. Gradually in due course they will be able to overcome the four negatives.
So chanting the holy names as, as a practise – as part of our program for becoming Krsna Conscious, it really is in a class of its own and it is the main activity. So, so Lord Caitanya took it up and we were mentioning in Phoenix, because He chanted without offences, Lord Caitanya therefore immediately –ecstatic symptoms – came to the point that He was just totally overwhelmed, because he was chanting without any offences.
For us to chant without offences, at least from day one of our chanting that, that is not easy. There are ten offences in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, specifically at the time. Well the other day, what was it? Sunday? Some devotees also received second initiation – they received gayatri mantras. There are also offences in the chanting of gayatri. In fact, it is more susceptible to offence than chanting Hare Krsna. Therefore devotees are only given gayatri mantras, or even made aware of what they are, at the time of second initiation, when they should be and they generally are, are much more strongly situated in Krsna Consciousness than right at the beginning. So, because of the offences, the sensitivity to offences, in the matter of chanting gayatri – therefore it is only given later on to devotees who are already more established in Krsna Consciousness. So, but in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, there are those ten offences and we emphasize the importance of avoiding those ten offences on a very regular bases. For example, here in the morning program, in this Temple, then every morning following the Nrsinga prayers, we recite all the ten offences every day, seven days a week, 365 days a year because its, it’s so important in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. However, here in these verses, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami has made a very interesting and extremely important point about chanting. That is, that in the chanting of the names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda, and in the chanting of the names of the Panca–tattva, the Panca-tattva maha-mantra
there are no offences, meaning even if you are offensive but your offences are not counted as offences, when you chant that mantra or the name of Lord Caitanya, name of Lord Nityananda. Even though you may actually commit offences, then one count it as offences and therefore one of verses that we read said that, “if one chants the names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda offensively or inoffensively, one may well find that tears come to the eyes and powerful symptoms of ecstasy surge through the body.” This is very amazing. This is very wonderful, therefore it is recommended to say the least. It is emphasized and, and actually, the very last verse that we read was emphasizing that because there are offences in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, therefore you should chant, you must chant, the names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda, the names of the Panca-tattva before you chant Hare Krsna. That will take care of your offences, wipe them out and then you can chant Hare Krsna and, if you do it nicely, then your chanting of Hare Krsna will be good and effective and you will experience similar feelings of transcendental benefit from your chanting of Hare Krsna. Otherwise, as we read bahu janma, how does it go?? bahu janma, not a verse I know well but, anyway bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana …seeing if I can’t find it, how does that go? bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana…
bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana
tabu ta‘ na paya krsna–pade prema–dhana
“If one is infested with the ten offences in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of his chanting.”
Krsna Consciousness is a science. It is not just some sort of – in one sense it is very simple but in another sense it is very deep and scientific and Srila Prabhupada referred to it as a science – the science of self realization on many occasions and one needs to develop these understandings. Otherwise, if one remains too simple, over-simplified, as a person, and for example, thinking, “oh, you can chant any name and the name Krsna. Oh, that’s okay – it’s the same.” This is over simplified, you’ve lost. You have simplified to the point you have lost some of the content and you lost some of what you need. It’s like over simplifying your body and you now don’t have any arms – your body has become over simplified, so it’s not going to work. So, no process is going to work of this religion, that religion. No process, particularly in kali-yuga, no process is going to work at least to the point that you can go back to Godhead if you chant the holy names? Seems this is missing, if you don’t chant the holy names and if you don’t chant the holy names without offences and you can only chant the holy names without offences if you worship Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda and chant:
As a result of this, on the bases of this very important vital point, some devotees say that, “why then are we chanting Hare Krsna because there are offences, and you may commit some of offences? Because its kali-yuga and we are conditioned and it is not easy so, so why chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra? Why not, instead of sixteen rounds of Hare Krsna, why not sixteen rounds of…
srivasadi-gaura–bhakta–vrnda…?”
In one sense it is not a bad idea, however in a more substantial sense, Srila Prabhupada make a point and, our Acaryas make a point, that Lord Caitanya Himself, setting the example for us, He chanted Hare Krsna and He taught chanting Hare Krsna, and He taught, He stressed, He emphasized, extremely powerfully and repeatedly and repeatedly chanting Hare Krsna, the Hare Krsna maha-mantra.
So, so we therefore must chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. However, as the author says here, before chanting, we must chant the names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda – we must chant the Panca-tattva maha-mantra then we will be able to chant the Hare Krsna nicely otherwise, bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana etc. Otherwise you can go on bahu janma many lifetimes chanting and you won’t achieve that love of God. So, this is a subtlety but it is a completely essential subtlety in the understanding of reality; in the understanding of religion; in the understanding of Krsna Consciousness.
It is a subtlety but it is totally essential if success is to possibly meet or even if one is to make more than just a little advancement really towards success, this chanting of the holy names of the Panca-tattva.
Another subtlety, another subtlety in Caitanya Caritamrta, Lord Caitanya emphasizes on the basis that “harer nama harer nama…” verse, He emphasizes all you need to do is chant “Hare Krsna”. That’s all you need to do. However, in the purport of that particular verse, Srila Prabhupada gives very extensive purport quoting Jiva Goswami in Bhakti Sandarbha to show that the real purport of what Lord Caitanya is saying is, all you have to do is chant Hare Krsna without offences and you have to chant Hare Krsna without offences otherwise, you to try to just only chant Hare Krsna and you will end up in the bahu janma kare yadi position many, many lifetimes.
You may just go on, and on, and on, and on trying to do your chanting of Hare Krsna but no prema-dhana – you want to receive that gift of love of God. So, therefore Srila Prabhupada, based on Jiva Goswami’s explanation in Bhakti Sandarbha, Srila Prabhupada makes the point that in order to come to the point of chanting Hare Krsna offenselessly, one has to become purified. How does one become purified? Through deity worship and, deity worship, in order to do real deity worship, like serious deity worship which is going to be effective, one has to be initiated and including what we refer to as second initiation. Without that, you cannot actually do that most substantial form of deity worship.
So, that also has to be there, it has to be there. So, this is another subtlety in the understanding of Krsna Consciousness. But first and foremost we have to chant the holy names without offences and in order to be able to that, in order to become able to do that, we have to chant the holy names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda, the holy names of the Panca-tattva, and then chant Hare Krsna.
Bhakti Caitanya Swami and Devotees: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Hare Krsna. Any comment or question? Oh yes – ek minute. Your voice is loud enough.
Madhumangal Prabhu: Maharaj, right in the beginning you were talking about if anyone does not accept Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu or Nityananda as Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then that person is a demon. So then I was just thinking to myself, that every time a guy goes out preaching to people and some of them are Christian, Muslim and they don’t accept Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu as Krsna or as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, can they be considered as demons?
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Madhumangal Prabhu is asking the question that we read Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, who is one of the great, great authorities, one of the greatest authorities in history in the universe. He says that anyone who does not accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is a demon and anyone who doesn’t accept Lord Caitanya as Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is also demon.
So what about the religionist and you know the, this one and that one that, that we meet that you know, that they just, there are many of them around. Does that mean there are demons? Well, I think that is what Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami said, so you know if you analyze their lives. Like one of Srila Prabhupada’s complaints about Mahatma Gandhi, Prabhupada didn’t take Mahatma Gandhi seriously, spiritually – like his understanding of what people should do in terms of religion; seriously and one thing Prabhupada said about Mahatma Gandhi was that Mahatma Gandhi encouraged, “let everyone practise their religion, including the Muslims” and he did, he went on one of his big fasts because there were some people attacking Muslims or something like that. So, Prabhupada made the point, their religion includes killing cows and so, Prabhupada, on a number of occasions, made the point about Mahatma Gandhi, that his understanding is just so lacking that he said, “Let them kill cows, it’s okay.” So, if you analyze their programs and activity, their understandings, you’ll see that they are doing for example, like that particular activity, something which is among the most, if not the most, but at least among, well up there, among the most sinful activities. It really is and we try to explain it to them and in many cases it’s like, “No, its fine. What are you talking about?”
You may have heard, I don’t know if you heard, it was a long time ago in Cape Town, there is, on the University campus, our BYS (Be-Your-Self) was developing strongly. It was, we was amazed. It was one of the top ten societies on the campus and then, you know back in those days, they made it just being only whites, you know, but it was one of the top ten in terms of many number of members and there were quite a few people from Jewish backgrounds, who students, who became members and they got involved and the people from the Jewish Students Society, they got upset, “we are losing our members.” So, they went to the chief Rabbi in Cape Town and, you know, and explained the situation and got in to make a statement against the Hare Krsna.
So, his statement was against vegetarianism that, his statement was, it was bizarre. It was a printed sort of thing they were distributing that it is natural to eat meat, natural you should do it. Not only is it okay but you should, and because it is natural to eat meat, it is unnatural not to eat meat and if you do something unnatural then it won’t work and it’s just, you know, try to push a square peg into a round hole, it’s just, it’s a battle and it just doesn’t work and it’s just a frustration. So, if you don’t eat meat you will become frustrated because it’s unnatural and, and he gave the example of a spring – you know, a spring you can press, a spring, and then you just let it go and it just springs out very strongly, you know. It can hurt people. So he said that, “if you don’t eat meat you will become frustrated and it will build up and then it will just come out of you, burst out of you, in sort-of like exaggerated, perverted form and you will end up eating human beings.” (laughter) And, you know, many of the students understood in this, is just, he’s lost it here, lost the plot.
So, so this is the problem, part of the problem, that in the name of their, of their religion, they remain attached to even, to the point where they may propagate certain, very simple activities, which Krsna is very sensitive about. He really doesn’t appreciate and then, and then sort of on the other hand you could say they also become antagonistic at least, they don’t accept and in some cases they become antagonistic, even violently antagonistic to Krsna and Krsna Consciousness and the devotees, even to the point of physical violence, this is going on. So, we accept what Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami says. Having said that, there are different levels of non devotees and some, even though you know they are definitely not devotees and they, you know, are doing things which Krsna really, really doesn’t appreciate but still, if you present things in a suitable way, they will get it and then they start to change their lives and, and truly become devotees. So, it’s like that.
Madhumangal Prabhu: Excuse me, the reason why I was asking this question, I think it was yesterday or the day before yesterday, I was talking about Allen Ginsberg and I was talking about when you hear the holy names, when you chant the holy names, the Lord will benefit the devotee. Sometimes when you hear the holy name even if, someone who is not a pure devotee or devotee then Krsna give you an example of Allen Ginsberg. The reason why I am talking about Allen Ginsberg, because – no I know the reason man, he was a materialistic person but Prabhupada liked him very much and…[missing words] but Prabhupada asked him to chant Hare Krsna…[missing words]
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: You see the thing is, the question is – Allen Ginsberg who was a famous poet in America. He was sort of – in business, you know, he was very attached to many materialistic activities but Prabhupada had him chant even publically, lead kirtan in public, in Prabhupada’s presence. So, why if he was a materialist and impersonalist? Because Prabhupada could see that despite his material, materialistic conditioning, he had enough of a spark of Krsna Consciousness that it would not, you know, be counterproductive having him lead the chanting. That’s the idea.
Hare Krsna.
Devotees: Hare Krsna.
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Srila Prabhupada ki –
Devotees: Jaya!